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Drakes - Do they need a nerf?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 8 post(s)
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.04 18:51:00 - [1] Not only that but how does that fit keep people in place
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.05 18:21:00 - [2] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Space Pinata Fury missiles are terrible at hitting small targets. At 2 TPs per ship, you're lighting up frigates like they're carriers. Originally by: Space Pinata At max range, you're talking about 13 seconds before your first missiles hit. You don't want to engage at max range, because there's chances that the range will change slightly and none of your missiles will hit. In actual engagements on TQ, I find the range is usually 50-60km Originally by: Space Pinata At 70km, the Beam Harbinger only does 305 DPS, as compared to 462. However; assuming they lock at the same time, the Harbinger has a 13 second head start. By the time the drakes first volley hits, the Harbinger has already dealt 3965 damage. At a DPS advantage of 157 damage/second, it then takes 25 seconds for the drake to catch up. 38 seconds in, both will have done about 11500. (11500 harb, 11550 drake). 60 seconds in: The harbinger will have done 18300 damage, the drake will have done 21714. tl;dr for people who don't want to read math: In a sniper fight, the Harbinger is at a DPS advantage for the first 38 seconds. At a full minute, the drake has managed to deal 15~% more damage than the harbinger. So the Harbinger (even 300~ dps vs 450~) wins if your primaries go down fast, and the drake wins slightly in a slower battle, much more significantly if you spend several minutes shooting one target (this should never happen in a fleet big enough to actually use sniping tactics. Just saying.) Check out how much EHP your Harb setup has. Drakes can do less DPS and win if they have 2x your EHP. A 10 second delay in damage application is a detriment, yes, but smart FCing can offset most of this (switching targets when your primary is in structure). In a proper sized bc sniper gang the harbs win out due to killing the targets quickly, its why zealots are considered better snipers than cerberus, the instant damage means alot in sniper gangs
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.19 13:01:00 - [3] Originally by: Acru Si Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington you can get good results out of pretty much everything if you back it up with 20 logistic ships. true to a point, logistics empower every gang...however depending of the enemy firepower it can be much easier to keep drakes alive with say 20 logistics and borderline impossible to keep other BC's alive. The rez bonus and ehp buffer of the drake makes it possible.. Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive, and if the fleet is large enough to insta a properly fitted bc (roughly about 45k ehp, on weakest resist) the fleet would be large enough to insta any bc.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.19 14:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Acru Si Originally by: Korg Leaf Unless they insta pop them 20 logistics should keep any ship alive... No. In large enough engagements there will be a lot of factors undermining logistics performance. Nr.1 is of course lag - increasing the delay before the primary broadcasts and logistics are able to rep. (stuck modules,list update delays u've been there.. ). Nr.2 is E-war - enemy ecm drones, ecm, damps, neut modules will all negatively impact logistic response. Nr.3 is broadcast noise - effective bomb raids usually cause broadcast floods that prevent logistics from locking into the actual primary.. And so on... So you depend on EHP until logistics can lock onto you (not enough and you will die before even the first rep cycle arrives - few t1 ships can achieve drake EHP) and you depend on rezistances for the logistics to stop you from melting under the enemy fire when logistics actually start repping (again few t1 ships can achieve drake resitances). So for Drake the winning recipe is monster EHP, godlike rezists and superior DPS in the 40-80 km range to any other BC. That was kinda my point both gangs would suffer the same problems of lag and so on, and although the drakes ehp is superior the gap isnt that large that it would be impossible to overcome.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.19 14:32:00 - [5] Originally by: darius mclever Originally by: Cipher Jones Thats a terribad PvP fit why would it need nerfed? It is actually a pretty good fleet pvp fit. although one might drop one TP for a sensor damp for more annoyance. Still not a good reason to nerf the drake
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.21 07:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Blackhorizon Edited by: Blackhorizon on 21/10/2010 01:03:28 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 20/10/2010 20:51:06 so instead of workaround the missile issue with nerfing drakes so they get less popular ... how about fixing missiles instead? (and yes i use missile boats a lot, in different flavors) All cards are on the table, we are merely analyzing for now with a high degree of concern its rapid rise in popularity and being open about it. The main two balancing points we are looking further at are its shield recharge and its ability to fit both for EHP and damage/damage projection very easily compared to others. The rest is scenario specific and not a fault of the drake. Consider the two issues separate if you will, the balance vs the rest of the class and the load it creates in fleet fight scenarios. We do indeed hope to address all missiles at some point. This is merely a heads up on an early stage investigation where nothing is set in stone. The Drake in a HAM configuration is balanced. What's out of line is the HML configuration. Simple balancing changes: - Reduce HML flight time by 33% - Reduce the base CPU on the Drake by 35 tf - Reduce all HAM CPU requirement by 5% This should make Drakes with HML less tanky while HAM Drakes are largely unaffected. My HAM and HML set ups get exactly the same ehp 83k, so your changes will make the hml set up fairly pointless as you would end up with something with roughly the same ehp as an armor cane, roughly the same align time as the armor cane but 200-300dps less than it
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.21 09:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Svennig Are you kidding me CCP? You're going to nerf the ONLY decent caldari fleet ship in the game!?? Don't even think about it. Don't even go there. Do not even contemplate it. Wouldnt go that far, i hear ecm is also good in fleets. But yeah ccp are idiots if they do this
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.22 07:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Prof Fail I think its the same issue like it was with nanoships. CCP always acts if a tactic or ship becomes far too popular. In those times the phenomenon of nanogangs occured all over eve. Vagabonds and nanoed Ishtars everywhere. Speed as tactic provided superior advatages in the old days. CCP looked at it and decided to kill off the whole thing. Now we have a similar situation: Its the Drake. Every large fleetfight consists of boring Drakeblobs. 100 Drakes...200 Drakes and even more. Scroll down killboard-battlereports of some recent fleetfights....Drake-icons everwhere. Drakes in the north, Drakes in the south....in the west and in the east. Just check the numbers someone posted....the Drake is by far the most used ship ingame. By far. Its even worse than it was with Vagabonds & Co. Imho reasons are: 1. Superior heavy missiles. They have too much range for a medium sized weapon system. Damage projection of heavy missiles is superior to turrets. Missiles deal the same amount of damage at any range. Turrets need skill intensive t2 ammunition to shot long range. Also turrets need alot tracking enhancers/computers to shot this far. Using tech2 range ammo gimps tracking and DMG while missiles always work equally good. 2. Drake has to high fitting ressources. Drakes can easily fit mwd, tank and a full rack of long range weapons. Try this with other BCs. Try to fit a full rack of arties, mwd and shield extenders on a cane..it wont be as easy. 3. Drakes have a rediculous amount of eHP. There is something seriously wrong if a cheap battlecruiser has eHP like a tanked battleship. This resist bonus of 25% is just crazy. 4. Locking range is too high for Drakes. Its the only BC which doesnt need to fit sensorboosters to hit at max range. Skills and simple gangboni are sufficient. Also Drakes dont need to fit tracking stuff to enhance their range. Other BCs have to devote at least 1 midslot for a sensorbooster and up to 3 slots for tracking mods. Finally you have your well tanked drake dishing out max damage @ max range vs. paperthin tanked turret BCs with snipesetup which have to waste 4 slots just to get it working. Also turret ships will do less DMG at medium to long ranges. Its simply not balanced for fleetfights. 5. Also I want to mention you dont need alot skills & skillpoints to max out missile. You need far more skill-requirements and support skills to be an effective gunner. Especially for long range you need alot of skillpoints (tech2 guns + t2 ammo). In case of heavy missiles you simply dont. Just put in your low-skill Caldari Navy whatever heavy missile and perform better than a turret ever can. To correct the awesomenes' of Drakes in fleet engagements id suggest -60% heavy missile range. As compensation ccp needs to introduce a mod comparable to tracking computers/enhancers...just for missiles. So you can up the range to 70-80 kms. Also the ehp of Drakes should be reduced. Either by removing the 25% resist bonus or by reducing hitpoints itself. Reduce the locking range so the Drake also has to fit a sensor booster. If you do it like this you force the Drakepilots to fit some mods to make the ship long range instead of fitting a crazy buffertank. It might be also useful to reduce Drake's powergrid to prevent this easy cookie-cutter setups. It shouldnt be that easy to fit range, dps, tank and speed at once. The -60% range and introduce missiles versions of tracking enhancers i could get behind but the rest of what you said was garbage and would make the drake useless. The tank is all the drake actually has once you remove the range on heavy missiles and introduce missile tracking mods then they have to choose between tank or range/gank. All in all though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the drake, just fotm 0.0 blob tactics. Soon there will be a different tactic once someone works the counter to drake blobs out. Same as AHacs.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. Black Cartel.	Posted - 2010.10.22 11:39:00 - [9] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Some really good opinions here. Remember this is atypical of our usual communication which comes following on from some action or pending change. Here we are experimenting in communication and catalyzing an open debate on a question posed regarding drake popularity and whether it is due to it being imbalanced and gathering opinion on that. As stated in earlier responses which I see some of you skipped(!), we would never nerf the drake because it used missiles and missiles cause additional load, that would be nonsensical indeed as many note. Its not due to imbalance, there sudden popularity is due to it being the fotm 0.0 tactic, soon they will come up with a new fotm tactic as they always do.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.10.27 13:08:00 - [10] Edited by: Korg Leaf on 27/10/2010 13:10:04 Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Thorazin Nerf the drake? u fking joking right? Its a tank ship and thats the only good thing about it Its dps suck, drone bay sucks also so what u plan to nerf? only advatange of drake is its tank and if you nerf that u better remove the ship cause it will suck bigtime. Btw nerfed drake and no joystick support for eve not even in future i think me and my RL friends are about to quit the game for something like X3 or JGE. DRAKE IS FINE AS IT IS NOW DONT NERF INSTEAD BOOST ITS DRONE BAY I WOULD SAY AND ADD A BLOODY JOYSTICK SUPPORT THE GAME GETS RLY BORING WITHOUT IT..... HAM Drake with overheated launchers gets 779 DPS and still has 80k EHP Just saying... Only if you use the 5% missile damage or 5% HAM Damage implant and rage hams, and to keep that 80k ehp buffer you need the 3% powergrid implant as well. Or you will have to drop either a BCU or the dc 2 for a power diagnostic system 2 and therefore have to choose between tank or gank. Edit. also that 779dps you quoted is out to around 15km
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.10.27 14:31:00 - [11] Drake is perfectly fine the way it is, you cant have both gank and tank without using implants or having high fitting skills and although it is arguably considered the best bc its not by a large enough margin to call it op
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.10.29 10:14:00 - [12] Originally by: Acru Si [Tengu, hml - EHP monster t2] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Photon Scattering Field II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay Tengu Engineering - Supplemental Coolant Injector Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer Also take a look at the T3 drake. Even (much)more EHP on cruiser sig and agility. Better DPS, lock range, maximum range, scan resolution and sensor strength. It takes all of drake strenghts and has few of its weaknesses. Any drake rebalancing should also consider tengu. Thats as bad a tengu fit as the ops drake fit
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.10.29 15:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Zogra How u get those numbers cause with my HML drake and most missile skills lvl 4 and some lvl 5 i barely get 250 dps including 3% ROF and 3% HML implants... Drake is fine its role its tank and it fits that role good Its dps suck and it doesnt need a nerf u said 550 dps with HML i get near 500 dps with HAM! with HML i get 250 dps max why dont u nerf amar ship instead? they kick ass in dps and they are very very strong armour tanks at the same time instead to boost caldari's u gone nerf them? this thread is a freaking joke right? Hope CCP wont take this into consideration cause it will completely destroy the game forcing all players to fly amarr no matter if they like it or not. I dont like how amarr ships look like thats the reason i dont wanna fly them! I Admit they kick ass and i admit lazer is the best dps weapon in game but i wont fly them never! I wanna fly caldari ships cause i like how they look but i got rly dissapointed from their performance. The only decent NOT OP just decent ship is drake and you gone nerf this to???? Stop making drake threads jeez its a poor tank its a poor ship no dps comes out of it unless u get HAM's and get full set of 5% implants and have all missile skills lvl 5 and no1 is gone get full set of 5% missile implants in low sec just to fly a HAM drake Even with HAM max dps is around 550 and range is about 15km the range is crap every else pvp ship will outrange you especially those canes and amarr lazers. i bet if u got an matar ship with a MWD you can get RLY fast close to drake to kick its ass there are 1 million ways to counter a HAM drake and even more to counter a HML drake Although i also agree the drake isnt op, all of your numbers are wrong. A HAM Drake with 3 bcu's and warriors will get just shy of 700dps on heat and the hml drake will get around 550dps. Also HAM Drakes kill hurricanes fairly easily due to having double the buffer.
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.11.24 08:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Markus Reese My 2c The drake, the problem isn't that it passive tanks, or the missiles, or what have you. The problem is it's base shield recharge before any modules are fitted is much higher than any other shield. Reduce base hp by 15% ish and drake will be fine. As for the roving gangs of bcs, that is what they are for. Larger combat still needs the big ships, bs etc. Cruisers seem like support ships to the bcs to me. If their shield recharge is a problem lower the recharge time dont reduce their buffer
Korg Leaf Time Bandits. The 0rphanage	Posted - 2010.11.24 15:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Darth Pheonix Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Yes, idiots bringing their mission ships passive tank them. PVP fit Drakes on the other hand are buffer fitted. (Did you just not know the difference? Either way you shouldn't even be part of this debate.) Yeah, they actually are mission/general PVE ships. That's what passive tanking is used for, and the only place it's actually impressive. Good PVP fits do not passive tank. So why don't you educate on the **ING difference you overconfident A CLOWN. "Passive tanking is different from buffer tanking, a-durr." It's the same **ING thing, you worthless piece of human BULL. I guess you just roam space with your 1000000000 man drake fleet and don't want to see your FOTM ship nerfed. Well too bad, bag. The need a nerf, they're getting nerfed. Stop **ing whining. Calm down, passive tank is different from buffer tanks. A passive tank will have purgers and spr's and rely on its shield recharge to tank things, the buffer version relies on its larger ehp to tank. They are completely different. Once again ill say drakes dont need nerfing, they only seem good in the massive drake blobs of 0.0 with its lag. In small gang and solo its as good as any of the other tier 2 bc's
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.13 12:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Aerilis Originally by: Furb Killer Aditionally drakes cannot alpha aproaching ceptors, so they are horrible. No, but once they are in web range, suddenly they're not going very fast anymore and they have 500% more sig radius... you go figure how they'll react to missiles. Your not going to come close to alphaing even a webbed ceptor with its mwd on, even in web range you will see a huge damage reduction
Korg Leaf Time Bandits.	Posted - 2010.12.13 14:09:00 - [17] Edited by: Korg Leaf on 13/12/2010 14:09:30 Nano cane or drake arent built for going 1v1 on each other, they are built for landing near a gang killing some stuff then getting out, and in that situation the nano cane excels as it can hit the smaller ships much harder which makes it easier to avoid scrams. A 1v1 between a nano drake and nano cane becomes a tank/gank fight not a fight about which is the better nano ship

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